In one of 2025's top episodes on the CX Iconoclast, Richard Owen speaks with Professor Moira Clark, Director of the Henley Centre for Customer Management at Henley Business School, about what truly drives customer loyalty, profitability, and organizational performance—based on more than two decades of research.

The conversation challenges familiar CX assumptions and reframes where leaders should focus their attention: not on sentiment or slogans, but on systems, incentives, and leadership decisions that shape behavior.

Key Takeaways

Employee Engagement Isn’t the Driver

Moira shares counter-intuitive research showing that higher employee engagement does not reliably lead to better customer retention or profitability. In some cases, highly engaged employees become inward-focused, treating customers as interruptions rather than priorities.

Culture vs. Climate

Customer outcomes are driven by organizational climate, not culture:

• Culture = values and stated intentions

• Climate = practices, procedures, reward systems, and what people actually do

Retention and profitability follow behavior, not belief.

From Engagement to Enablement

High-performing organizations focus on customer-focused enablement:

• Incentives aligned to customer outcomes

• Systems that reinforce customer priorities

• Measurement of actions, not just attitudes

Without this alignment, CX efforts become performance theater.

AI as Strategic Leverage

The episode also explores the evolving role of AI in CX. Moira urges leaders to move beyond cost-cutting and use AI to deliver differentiated value at scale—through smarter personalization, automation, and decision-making.